Curse

Loviatar · Oct 02, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Guild Wars has abandoned the concepts that made the game what it was. Unfortunately for us, there is a demographic that likes these types of games, and it is they (looking at you, freekedoutfish) who actually enjoy the game for what it has turned into.

Maybe it is we who are the niche, who like GW for what it was. If so, then ANet is just following the money, as any business will.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

actually you are the nitch and add me to the list as a dedicated casual player

the terms are not mutually exclusive.

i can even tell you the exact moment the *writing on the wall* appeared but i will be the first to admit it slipped right past me at the time.

JEFF STRAIN was doing an interview post sorrows furnace and a few months before factions.

he said one thing that was the future and i missed it completely at the time.

he said
[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS

one thing that surprised me and the entire development team is the number of players who are continuing to RP their characters instead of switching over to PVP after finishing the game as expected

they are going for the mass market not some little nitch market

TabascoSauce · Oct 02, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

I agree that there is a large market for the genre of games where the power curve is very large, from bottom to top. The side effect of that sort of game is that time played, thus level earned, is a replacement for the innate player aptitude for the game. The success of Guild Wars Prophecies shows that there is also a market for a flatter game, and the very quote you are making shows that there is a market for that kind of game as well.

The point I am trying to make is that one of several things is going to happen, sure as anything, in that ANet will retain this niche (or game type, specialty, game class, genre, whatever term you prefer), or they will not and a replacement will be made. If there is money to be made, someone will do it. In fact, there are some GW spinoffs coming already, and as Strain alluded to in his recent speech, the best team to build the next GuildWars is presumably the current GuildWars team, unless they vacate the space.

Even you are conceding that GuildWars is changing from its original vision. What we should be concerned about is whether ANet will vacate the space.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Clone · Oct 02, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

Guild Wars started quite a long time ago, in game-development terms. From the E3 for Everyone event in May 2004 to the World Preview Event in October 2004 through Beta Weekend Events that ran until release in April of 2005, many of us have been playing Guild Wars for a very long time.

Quite frankly, we did not realize, when we started developing the game, that people would put in 5,000, 6,000, even the more than 7,000 hours that some are spending in the Guild Wars world. However, players are spending that kind of time -- Dwayna bless 'em :wink: -- and we have responded to their requests for recognition of their dedication to and love of the game.

A well-known Guild Wars fan, Photics, wrote a plea long ago to "add more grind to the game." But he didn't really mean "grind," as in meaningless time spent in the game. He, like many other players, asked us for more ideals, more goals, and more choices. Based on those requests, and out of respect for what the wide variety of players would like to see in the game that they so clearly enjoy, we've created many special things: New high-end armours, Hard Mode, special items for victory in HA, titles, and more.

So is this thread about making things easier to get? Is this a plea to reduce the time investment, so that everyone can have everything? Please, no. If everyone can drive a Ferrari, is a Ferrari so special? If everyone wears diamonds, are the gems as precious? Scarcity and rarity are very important elements of those things that we value the highest.

On a personal note, I will likely never have FOW armour. I will probably never get a Ghostly Hero or a Rainbow Phoenix. Heck, I don't have a full set of Polymock pieces or a complete set of greens. (And not that many of my weapons are "perfect," either.) Does that make me a poor player? A lesser citizen? Nope. It defines me player more on the "casual" end of the scale. And you know what? That's ok! I would love to have those special items, and I can get them, but if I want them, I need to work for them. To the victor go the spoils. To the dedicated, go the high-end items and titles. And that's as it should be!

None of the rare and wonderful items or titles is required. All are optional. Not a single one gives you a strategic advantage. So why should they be cheapened -- be made commonplace -- because some players believe that they should get all that the game has to offer, with the minimum amount of effort? I'm sorry, buy that's not the way the real world works. And as a gamer, that's not the way I want my game world to work either.

It was Fow armor that was, in fact, the perfect type of grind for Guild Wars. It set apart players who spent the time to get it. However, it didn't make other players into second class citizens because the armor at Droks was functionally the same. But, this has changed in Eye of the North (and to a lesser extent in Nightfall). I'll spot the casual gamer to a R3 norn. Even then, the level 10 norn has +7 armor, +80 health, and does 56 more damage every 3 seconds with Ursan Strike. They do more damage and have a better chance to survive attacks. Per your quote, "Not a single one gives you a strategic advantage," would you care to define what an advantage is then, if this isn't? If one 7/8 group is looking for a tank, who will be picked?

Obsidian armor wasn't a guarantee of petter performance. The player could have ebayed the cash, or simply spent a lot of time 55ing without a lot of work on actually doing anything else. But, if a rank 10 norn can do significantly more damage than a rank 3 norn, the skill of the person playing takes a back seat. Any rube with the wits to press "c space c 1 c space c 1 c space c 1" can be a boon to the party if they simply have a more powerful skill that triggers when they press the button.

I remember how you used to herald the argument that a collector's sword was just as good as a crystalline. It didn't do any more damage, after all. I agree. Collector gear served me well. So, where's my collector's equivalent to a rank 10 norn's Ursan Strike?

EternalTempest · Oct 02, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

@Gaile

I was not interested in a lot of "elite" armor, or destroyer weapons (I did collectors) and loved the 1.5K

It's the Hall of Monuments and the GW2 "unlocks" that making a lot of people feel they have to get this. This is what driven me for Kuzark fff, Wurm Mode HM Farming in Nightfall, and HM/Mapping and titles. I was never interested in this stuff until then.

PvE's play the way they want to play but as soon as HoM was linked to yet unknown GW2 unlocks, a lot more are going to take interest and feel frustrated due to having a lot more work (use the term work on a game loosely). It's kinda like how players will play more then there use to for holiday events just because it's a holiday.

Loviatar · Oct 02, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

@Gaile

I was not interested in a lot of "elite" armor, or destroyer weapons (I did collectors) and loved the 1.5K

It's the Hall of Monuments and the GW2 "unlocks" that making a lot of people feel they have to get this. This is what driven me for Kuzark fff, Wurm Mode HM Farming in Nightfall, and HM/Mapping and titles. I was never interested in this stuff until then.

first this is not intended to be negative at you in any way and i apologize in advance if needed.

since it was stated by the devs that they are being very sure that none of the unlocks will give a player any advantage why are people seeming frantic to get everything now?

myself for example i am not spending anything now as i am happy with my Drok armor i got more than 2 years ago and i will simply wait to see what will unlock what in GW2 as i dont wish to waste time on why did i unlock this instead of that?

you can add to the hall at any time so i will save up stuff on my mule account and when the time comes i will get whatever turns into what i want to unlock.

why waste the effort when i can be playing for fun instead of feeling i have to get something right now.

again no offence meant but i am curious

Crom The Pale · Oct 02, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

@Gaile

I was not interested in a lot of "elite" armor, or destroyer weapons (I did collectors) and loved the 1.5K

It's the Hall of Monuments and the GW2 "unlocks" that making a lot of people feel they have to get this. This is what driven me for Kuzark fff, Wurm Mode HM Farming in Nightfall, and HM/Mapping and titles. I was never interested in this stuff until then.

PvE's play the way they want to play but as soon as HoM was linked to yet unknown GW2 unlocks, a lot more are going to take interest and feel frustrated due to having a lot more work (use the term work on a game loosely). It's kinda like how players will play more then there use to for holiday events just because it's a holiday.

Ok so are you for or against Anet creating more interest in certain areas of the game that were lacking before?

People have always crossed the same maps over and over killing things, but now you get a tangable reward for doing so.

I like the game as it now is, could it be better, ofcoures!

EternalTempest · Oct 02, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

first this is not intended to be negative at you in any way and i apologize in advance if needed.

since it was stated by the devs that they are being very sure that none of the unlocks will give a player any advantage why are people seeming frantic to get everything now?

myself for example i am not spending anything now as i am happy with my Drok armor i got more than 2 years ago and i will simply wait to see what will unlock what in GW2 as i dont wish to waste time on why did i unlock this instead of that?

you can add to the hall at any time so i will save up stuff on my mule account and when the time comes i will get whatever turns into what i want to unlock.

why waste the effort when i can be playing for fun instead of feeling i have to get something right now.

again no offence meant but i am curious

Not offened at your post at all.

There so many elements that have "collectable card game apeal" and with enough time you can "collect" it all. I own all the Collector's Edition, own all the direct song packs (even had to buy a copy of the SE version of GW to get one of packs).

I was happy with the fact I don't own perfect golds (used collectors), had 1 maybe 2 sets of 15k, fow was not even a dream, and content with having every ele skill on ele character from all 3 games.

My version of done was to take a charater, have the weapons / armor I wanted, get 100% of the skill of the primary profession and have every town / outpost mapped, and of course beat all 3 games.

Since it's been stated HoM will unlock stuff in GW2 that exculsive and it's based of titles, elite armor, hero upgrades, and destroyer weapons. This has driven me (can't explain what the cause was) to get as many unlocks as I can reasonbly get. I know others out (not everyone) there similiar to me will be feeling since it can be unlocked they will feel a complusion to do so. Even if they give zero combat advantage.

I feel a lot of this friction is having to do stuff for these unlock that feel like grind (compred to FFXI, gw is NOT grind).

I understand Gaile postion but wanted to state what I feel (and others that feel simliar) the way the unlock works will drive someone to be upset and/or change the way they play.

Having what unlock do happen in GW2 would help greatly but.. I don't think even Anet has this set in stone other then a lose idea. Just talking about thoughts and feelings from the dev's about the HoM would help.

FelixCarter · Oct 02, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Farming isn't the path to success, being a skilled player, knowing the game, knowing the lore, that should have more reward then farming any day of the week. Casual players can go farm, but casual players don't take the time to truly learn Guild Wars; to read and understand the lore, to memorize the locations of each area and their unique attributes, strengths and weaknesses of the monsters. This is what makes a devoted player truly a devotee, not mindless farming. Rather then reward those with the TIME to farm, reward those players truly interested in your series, even if they don't have every waking moment to spend slaughtering all the happy little creatures in Tyria.

WTB That game.

My build works everywhere. On any enemy. In any area. And if I have Rank10 in the Asuran Title Track, my skills become more powerful.

If I have Rank8 in the Lightbringer Title Track, I will be able to take less damage and do more hits to my enemies.

If I have Rank7 in my Wisdom and Treasure Hunter Title Track, I will only have a 8% chance to lose my items when I salvage from them. Thus, I will 'waste' less money than you.

In short, all my titles that take time to get make me a better player than you. I have better skills. I take less damage. I do more hits. I spend less money.

Now, if you'll escuse me. That group that was about to choose you to PuG with them chose me instead.

"Why?" you ask?

... I think it's quite obvious... You are an inferior player compared to me.

You lack time.

Bryant Again · Oct 02, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixCarter

WTB That game.

My build works everywhere. On any enemy. In any area. And if I have Rank10 in the Asuran Title Track, my skills become more powerful.

If I have Rank8 in the Lightbringer Title Track, I will be able to take less damage and do more hits to my enemies.

If I have Rank7 in my Wisdom and Treasure Hunter Title Track, I will only have a 8% chance to lose my items when I salvage from them. Thus, I will 'waste' less money than you.

In short, all my titles that take time to get make me a better player than you. I have better skills. I take less damage. I do more hits. I spend less money.

Now, if you'll escuse me. That group that was about to choose you to PuG with them chose me instead.

"Why?" you ask?

... I think it's quite obvious... You are an inferior player compared to me.

You lack time.

There are quite a few posts that I wish I couldn't say this, but Qft.

the_jos · Oct 02, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

How many people do you see with Legendary Vanquisher of Tyria? How about Cantha? I haven't seen another person with one of those titles in a long time. Do you know why? Most of the Guild Wars gamers today are too wrapped up in the mediocre time-consuming craze.

I have several guildies with vanquish titles, but it takes time to get those.
Time you cannot spend on other things.
I do understand it's not a priority title.
They don't show the vanq title, because they show their KOBD track.
I'm one of the few in my guild that wears a legendary (carto) instead of PKM.
I'm helping guildies out with their HM titles most of the time and am not working active on my own titles.

There is however one title I'd like to be account based.
It's the skill cap title.
It's a usefull title for unlocks, but not on more than one account.

zwei2stein · Oct 02, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clone

I remember how you used to herald the argument that a collector's sword was just as good as a crystalline. It didn't do any more damage, after all. I agree. Collector gear served me well. So, where's my collector's equivalent to a rank 10 norn's Ursan Strike?

Now, thats interesting thought.

Masterr · Oct 02, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

What do you mean by this, exactly? For any title the amount of time you put into it is going to determine how high it is. And it just so happens that, usually, the more time you put into something the better you get at it. For example, a rank 10 hero will most likely be better than a rank 5 hero at tombs, just as much as a rank 2 champ will be better than a rank 10 hero at GvG. Saying that, though, people need to realise that there are people who have the skill, just not the titles- but that's not ANet's fault.

i mean the effectiveness of a grind based skill its not (primarily) determined by my own skill as a player, but by how much i have grinded, this is not the game i bought.

thor thunder · Oct 02, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

to OP:
HERE HERE (its not spelled wrong i just want you to drink lol)
il rase my glass to that, excellent post i agree so much with your ideals that it makes me want to quit GW in general but i dont see that happining anytime soon.

Well there are a couple things you over looked tho, yes GW has screwed up alot including the drop of competion and fun for GvG and changeing it to AB (another move for the anti social) But look at the bright side we still have guilds.. im not in a "top Guild" because i chose not to, those guilds are generaly very anti social and personaly i feel there way to up tight. But If you place your self in a good guild thats fun funny active and highly social it makes your experiance that much better, i believe the anitial design of guilds and alliances was brilliant but they seriously need to creat compitions not only for top guilds but all guilds noting to do with GvG or pVp in general but mabey somthing silly or fun like guild races or funnyist video there plenty of options comon Anet get creative again! I miss it so much.. some times id give all i have in this game to be able to go back to proph back when it first came out =) when the people were friendly and the times were easy...
great post and Cheers to you mate

Achilles Antony · Oct 02, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

To the OP: I feel pretty much the same way as you, which is why I'm currently taking a break from the game. I too have been playing this game from the beginning (or before the beginning if you count alpha/beta) and saw what I felt to be the perfect online game. It had almost everything I wanted in an online RPG... of course there were things it didn't have that it could have used, but that didn't matter at the time. To watch it devolve into what it has with each chapter has been rather painful for me, and sadly I likely won't be getting GW2, unless it goes back to the roots of the game I thought it was going to become. I'm actively looking for new MMORPG's, but none I've tried have even come close to the experience I had when I first logged into Guild Wars so long ago.

EPO Bot · Oct 02, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Fact: If PVP was still the only thing to do after completing the PVE part, i would have left this game more the na year ago due to overly elitist HA crap.

I rather grind the same area a couple of times then playing the overpowered build of the month over and over and over and over.... (and if i wouldn't use it, i simply wouldn't be able to get a party)

So PVP can be removed altogether for all i care.

Lord Sojar · Oct 02, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Alright, to save my own face, I have removed my personal attacks on Arena Net's marketing team. That was wrong of me, and I do apologize. Anger got the better of me.

Now, on to something more interesting....

I am noticing something come up a lot in this thread; people are angry about having to do this grind on multiple characters, and feel as though they are being forced into playing one character because the titles are character based, not account based.

Now here is another interesting argument that can be made. The original introduction of Guild Wars came with a great clause in it. Arena Net founded the game with the principle that the level cap was 20, so you could have multiple characters and enjoy each class rather then just focusing on one character. What happened to that motto? Again, another thing Guild Wars was founded on that has all but disappeared. I didn't get FoW armor on 5 characters only to use my monk and never see the other 4 sets. I wanted to use all my characters equally, depending on what a group needed or what my friends wanted to do. It is silly to only be able to play one class in the game now, or rather, to have a main character if you ever want to achieve anything in the current game.

Frankly, I see this as yet another fatal flaw in Eye of the North, and even Nightfall for that matter. Nightfall started this trend, Eye of the North simply expanded on it 40x over. The fact is, if you want to have the experience of playing multiple classes in the game now, you are being "punished" by Arena Net because you don't fit into their new grind design. Grind Wars wasn't the game I fell in love with, Guild Wars was. I certainly hope they realize that in Guild Wars 2, and not Grind Wars 2: World of Grind Craft.

As a side note, this thread appears to be the most popular issue thread in Riverside right now. Safe to say, this is a pretty big issue, be you for or against it.

Lonesamurai · Oct 02, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Alright, to save my own face, I have removed my personal attacks on Arena Net's marketing team. That was wrong of me, and I do apologize. Anger got the better of me.

Now, on to something more interesting....

I am noticing something come up a lot in this thread; people are angry about having to do this grind on multiple characters, and feel as though they are being forced into playing one character because the titles are character based, not account based.

Now here is another interesting argument that can be made. The original introduction of Guild Wars came with a great clause in it. Arena Net founded the game with the principle that the level cap was 20, so you could have multiple characters and enjoy each class rather then just focusing on one character. What happened to that motto? Again, another thing Guild Wars was founded on that has all but disappeared. I didn't get FoW armor on 5 characters only to use my monk and never see the other 4 sets. I wanted to use all my characters equally, depending on what a group needed or what my friends wanted to do. It is silly to only be able to play one class in the game now, or rather, to have a main character if you ever want to achieve anything in the current game.

Frankly, I see this as yet another fatal flaw in Eye of the North, and even Nightfall for that matter. Nightfall started this trend, Eye of the North simply expanded on it 40x over. The fact is, if you want to have the experience of playing multiple classes in the game now, you are being "punished" by Arena Net because you don't fit into their new grind design. Grind Wars wasn't the game I fell in love with, Guild Wars was. I certainly hope they realize that in Guild Wars 2, and not Grind Wars 2: World of Grind Craft.

As a side note, this thread appears to be the most popular in Riverside right now. Safe to say, this is a pretty big issue, be you for or against it.

Ok, have i missed something here? i finished GW:EN today and still the only times I've had to grind anything in the entire game was Sunspear and Kurzick faction... and they weren't even for GW:EN content... So what have i missed that i need to grind for? I have max armour, i have max green weapons, I'm lvl 20 and have enough gold and mats to make 15k armours, so what have I missed?

Yichi · Oct 02, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

Ok, have i missed something here? i finished GW:EN today and still the only times I've had to grind anything in the entire game was Sunspear and Kurzick faction... and they weren't even for GW:EN content... So what have i missed that i need to grind for? I have max armour, i have max green weapons, I'm lvl 20 and have enough gold and mats to make 15k armours, so what have I missed?

The fact that if you want anything in GW:Nightfall as far as progression of the storyline, or any weapons, armor, or consumables in GW:EN, youre forced to do these things.

If this game was truly ment for the casual player as has been mentioned, than everyone at any time would have access to these things. In Nightfall, it was bad to have implimented it in as part of the storyline, much less later add skills that are scalable with this title track. In GW:EN it was the wrong idea to make ANY of the skills linked to the title tracks, much less the NPC's.

Lord Sojar · Oct 02, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

Ok, have i missed something here? i finished GW:EN today and still the only times I've had to grind anything in the entire game was Sunspear and Kurzick faction... and they weren't even for GW:EN content... So what have i missed that i need to grind for? I have max armour, i have max green weapons, I'm lvl 20 and have enough gold and mats to make 15k armours, so what have I missed?

Lone, essentially, you either have to go out of your way and do every single side quest + kill monsters repeatedly with the hunt blessings, or you have do do a good amount of side quests and kill a LOT of monsters repeatedly with hunt blessings. Also, you probably did dungeons. Your a hardcore player Lone, despite what you might say. Casual players wouldn't try and run a Guild Wars radio and start their own website. Casual players wouldn't have the time to go on 2+ hour dungeon runs to farm dwarven points, they wouldn't have the time to go on multiple Asura point farm runs south of Rata Sum. They also wouldn't have the time to clear Drakkar lake multiple times to get r5 Norn. That means they are not allowed to access those "40 new armor sets" that are ADVERTISED. The grind locks casual players out of a lot of the content unless they change from being a casual player to a semi devoted player. Maybe they don't have the time for that? Real life comes first in most peoples' books.

Craywulf · Oct 02, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

OP,

I'm sorry, but Guild Wars has evolved and so have its players who are now veterans. To expect ArenaNet to keep Guild Wars from evolving would ultimately kill the franchise. Look around there are alot more MMORPGs out there now and they are constantly being improved as the genre progresses.

Ask any MMORPG player from any other game other than Guild Wars and they will tell you their game has evolved or faded away. World of Warcraft isn't the same game it was from the beginning, neither is games like City of Heroes.

Problem isn't the game, its the players. Grind exist because you're no longer that newbie who's never played a MMORPG. There's no surprise any more and your just going through the motions.

Solution, take a break from MMORPGs.